Lesson 7: Havamal & Heathen Ethics

[Mjollnir]

Anyone have any questions, comments so far?

[mothwench]

i'm still working through it, but here's two questions to start with:

13) the heron of heedlessness hovers o'er the feast;

and stealeth the minds of men.

is there any other references you can think of (other than havamal) that attributes herons to drunkenness? why herons?


also, i wonder about these stanzas. they seem to contradict eachother slightly? or am i wrong?

43) With his friend a man should be friends ever,

and with him the friend of his friend;

but foeman's friend befriend thou never,

(and keep thee aloof from his kin)

45) If another there be whom ill thou trusteth,

yet would'st get from him gain;

speak fair to him though false thou meanest,

and pay him lesing for lies.


46) And eke this heed: if ill thou trust one,

and hollow-hearted his speeck;

thou shalt laugh with him and lure him on,

and let him have tit for tat.

[Darkdale]

This is one of my favorite parts of the Havamal:

55) Middling wise every man should be:

beware of being too wise;

for wise man's heart is happy seldom,

if too great the wisdom he won.

Asatru is one of the few traditions that places a greater immediate emphasis on "know how" than on "wisdom". Being wise is wise enough. Too much understanding causes restlessness and cynicism; but "know how" - being able to accomplish things, that's a real blessing. It's been my experience that this is true.

Growing up, I spent most of my time playing sports, reading books, writing stories and playing with friends. My father worked all the time and no one ever taught me how to do anything. I learned to think creatively, I learned to study books a great deal. I've read all the philosophers, the great religious thinkers and political minds. I know the great inventors and the great artists. I'm familiar with all the social sciences, psychological theories, sociological theories. I have a deep understanding of people, why the do what they do, what they want, how they feel.

But I'm about to turn 26. I'm just now learning how to do simple things. Change the oil on my car, put together a grill. I can't build anything. I can't fix anything. I have very little "know how".

I would trade all the things I understand, for just half the things the average person knows how to do.

What I know how to do is worthless. I can write you a poem, answer a question, through a baseball 60mph into the strike zone... but anyway...I'm rambling.

The point is, that alot "know how" is more important than alot "wisdom". Be wise enough to know what is right and what is wrong. More wisdom than that is just a burden.

[Mjollnir]

Originally Posted by mothwench

i'm still working through it, but here's two questions to start with:



is there any other references you can think of (other than havamal) that attributes herons to drunkenness? why herons?

Good question mothy, according to the note attached to this stanza in the Hollander translation it is as follows: Apparently, the state of mind superinduced by the magic use of the heron's feathers. (See Scandanavian Notes and Studies, 1914, 259 ff). It has also been suggested that the allusion may be to the old-time scoop, usually in the shape of a long necked bird, which floated on the butt in which ale was served ( Arv, 1957, 21, ff.)

Originally Posted by mothwench

also, i wonder about these stanzas. they seem to contradict eachother slightly? or am i wrong?

Stanza 43:Basically he is saying your friend's friend is also you friend, but never befriend a friend of your enemy and watch out for his kin as well.

Stanza 45:Seems to me he is saying if you know he is no good get from him what you can and pay him back the same if he crosses you.

Stanza 46: If you dont trust someone, and you sense he is up to no good, dont let on, get close to him and repay what he does to you accordingly.

In the Sagas there are references to pretty much those 3 instances you gave, and all usually have less than ideal outcomes.

[mothwench]

Originally Posted by Mjollnir

Good question mothy, according to the note attached to this stanza in the Hollander translation it is as follows: Apparently, the state of mind superinduced by the magic use of the heron's feathers. (See Scandanavian Notes and Studies, 1914, 259 ff). It has also been suggested that the allusion may be to the old-time scoop, usually in the shape of a long necked bird, which floated on the butt in which ale was served ( Arv, 1957, 21, ff.)

thanks. hmmm... interesting. would you then say it is *not* a good idea to attribute herons to frigg? the reason i ask is, i've done so before, intuitively i think.

Stanza 43:Basically he is saying your friend's friend is also you friend, but never befriend a friend of your enemy and watch out for his kin as well.

well, yes indeed it says that in this translation. so maybe it's a moot discussion. i once printed out the havamal from northvegr, which is different:

A man should be loyal through life to friends,
to them and to friends of theirs,
but never shall a man make offer
of friendship to his foes

i marked that passage back then as something to find out about when i get the chance. do you think that its a wrong translation? because if hollander's is correct, that would resolve the problem of contradiction.

Stanza 45:Seems to me he is saying if you know he is no good get from him what you can and pay him back the same if he crosses you.

Stanza 46: If you dont trust someone, and you sense he is up to no good, dont let on, get close to him and repay what he does to you accordingly.

oh. i'll have to read through them again, the way i interpreted it was, kind of like instructions on how to get things from people you don't like by pretending to like them. maybe i just read it wrong.

[banondraig]

Originally Posted by mothwench

oh. i'll have to read through them again, the way i interpreted it was, kind of like instructions on how to get things from people you don't like by pretending to like them. maybe i just read it wrong.

the way i interpreted it was not to let people who pretend they like you in order to get things from you know that you are wise to them.

[Mjollnir]

Originally Posted by mothwench

thanks. hmmm... interesting. would you then say it is *not* a good idea to attribute herons to frigg? the reason i ask is, i've done so before, intuitively i think.

Let me get back to you on that ok?

Originally Posted by mothwench

well, yes indeed it says that in this translation. so maybe it's a moot discussion. i once printed out the havamal from northvegr, which is different:.

The Bellows translation may be different but the meaning stays the same, never trust the friend/kin of your enemy

Originally Posted by mothwench

oh. i'll have to read through them again, the way i interpreted it was, kind of like instructions on how to get things from people you don't like by pretending to like them. maybe i just read it wrong.

Or I could have...., if you do get something else when you re-read it let me know and I will do the same.

[Mjollnir]

Ok, here is the Bellows translation:


44. (43) To his friend a man a friend shall prove,
To him and the friend of his friend;
But never a man shall friendship make
With one of his foeman’s friends.

Again, a friend of a friend is good, friend/kin of an enemy= bad.


46. (45) If another thou hast whom thou hardly wilt trust,
Yet good from him wouldst get,
Thou shalt speak him fair, but falsely think,
And fraud with falsehood requite.



47. (46) So is it with him whom thou hardly wilt trust,
And whose mind thou mayst not know;
Laugh with him mayst thou, but speak not thy mind,
Like gifts to his shalt thou give.

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer and the key part to me is this:"Like gifts to his shalt thou give." Paybacks are a bitch.


Also mothy, remember Stanza's 42 and 44 are just as important because they intertwine with the others to form the complete understanding.

[mothwench]

Originally Posted by banondraig

the way i interpreted it was not to let people who pretend they like you in order to get things from you know that you are wise to them.

yeah, i see how you can read that into the hollander translation. i'll post the versions i've got, and it doesn't come through like that at all:

if you deal with another you don't trust
but wish for his good-will,
be fair in speech but false in thought
and give him lie for lie

even with one you ill-trust
and doubt what he means to do,
false words with fair smiles
may get you the gift you desire.

thanks banondraig and mjollnir.

[mothwench]

okay, more questions. is stanza 49 a appeal to be properly clothed, groomed and basically look the best you can?

49) In the fields as i fared, (for fun) I hung

my weeds on two wooden men;

they werre reckoned folks when the rags they wore:

naked, a man is naught.

and i can't make any sense out of either versions of 66 and 67:

66) Too late by far to some feasts i came;

to others, all too soon;

the beer was drunk, or yet unbrewed;

never hits it the hapless one aright.



67) Here or there would they have me in,

if no meat at the meal i craved;

or hung two hams in my good friend's home,

after eating one of his own.