Lesson 7: Havamal & Heathen Ethics

[Mjollnir]

Originally Posted by mothwench

okay, more questions. is stanza 49 a appeal to be properly clothed, groomed and basically look the best you can?

Hollander trans.Stanza 49 Note:Probably, wooden idols as signposts beside the road, intended to protect the wayfarer from evil powers.

Bellows trans.
50. (49) My garments once in a field I gave
To a pair of carven poles;
Heroes they seemed when clothes they had,
But the naked man is nought.


I can see what you mean, anyone else??

Originally Posted by mothwench

and i can't make any sense out of either versions of 66 and 67:

66) Too late by far to some feasts i came;

to others, all too soon;

the beer was drunk, or yet unbrewed;

never hits it the hapless one aright.


I think you could read it as you cant seem to catch a break, you either arrive after the brew is gone(too late) or before it is ready(too early) instead of being prepared and arriving to your destination in a timely manner.


Hollander trans.
67) Here or there would they have me in,

if no meat at the meal i craved;

or hung two hams in my good friend's home,

after eating one of his own.

Bellows trans.
68. (67) To their homes men would bid me hither and yon,
If at meal-time I needed no meat,
Or would hang two hams in my true freind’s house
Where only one I had eaten.

Could have to do with hospitality, making sure there is enough food for the guests. In the Sagas and in Northern history, hospitality was of utmost importance and even those with meager provisions would whatever they had to a guest. There is an excellent account in Egil's Saga of what he does when he feels he is being shirked as a guest and is told that the best food was being held back.

[mothwench]

ah, thanks. those two stanzas seem to make more sense now.

[mothwench]

question bombardment! if this is too much, ignore, i'll surely understand.


any ideas about the meaning of stanza 80?

80) 'Tis readily found when the runes thou ask,

made by mighty Gods, known to holy hosts,

and dyed deep red by Othin:

that 'tis wise to waste no words.

this is puzzling....

81) At eve praise the day,

when burned down, a torch,

a wife when bedded, a weapon when tried,

ice when over it, ale when 'tis drunk.

quite different from the one i have:

for these things give thanks at nightfall:
the day gone, a guttered torch,
a sword tested, the troth of a maid,
ice crossed, ale drunk

one seems to say "don't count your chickens before they've hatched" and the other just seems to say don't take such-and-such for granted.
which do you think is the correct interpretation?

on to stanzas 84 and 91:

84) A wench's words let no wise man trust,

nor trust the troth of a woman;

for on whirling wheel their hearts are shaped,

and fickle and fitful their mings.

91) Heed my words now, for i know them both:

mainsworn are men to women;

we speak most fair when most foul our thoughts,

for that wiles the wariest wits.

mine reads:

naked may i speak now for both i know both:
men are treacherous too
fairest we speak when falsest we think:
many a maid is decieved.

okay, first of all... was it uncommon or unheard of that women should converse with men, or become friends?
because from what i believe, by looking at the cultures today and how they interact, that this isn't typical at all. germans and scandinavians are a lot less gender specific when it comes to education, upbringing and social interaction than say, for example, american or mediterranian (i'm looking in comparison to e.g. spain) cultures.


what are all the stanzas about billings daughter trying to say? that you should know your boundaries, and try and accept them? or is it just an extensive example of experience in references to the two stanzas before all that, 93 and 94, which say you shouldn't mock a man for having falling in love?

[banondraig]

Originally Posted by mothwench

okay, more questions. is stanza 49 a appeal to be properly clothed, groomed and basically look the best you can?

and/or watch out for stuffed shirts and the people who take them seriously.

and i can't make any sense out of either versions of 66 and 67:

66 sounds a lot like my life lately.

67, i don't know, i can't make heads or tails of it either.

[mothwench]

this is a bit bizarre...

what is a shaft maker? and why is it unlucky to be one? i've never heard this. you'd think there would be a lack of shoemakers in all of skandinavia. is there??? why shoemakers and shaft carvers? what'd they do?
this post is a wee bit tongue in cheek, but i'm still a bit curious. maybe someone has some input or an idea.

126) Hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

neither shoemaker be nor shaftmaker, either,

but it be for thyself:

let the shoe be ill shaped or the shaft not true,

and they will wish thee woe.

[mothwench]

this, of course, is quite interesting and i just wanted to comment:

137) Hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

when ale thou drinkest invoke earth-strength;

[for earth is good 'gainst ale, 'gainst ague, fire,

'gainst straining, acorns, 'gainst witchery, steel,

'gainst house-strife, the elder, 'gainst hate, the moon,

'gainst rabies, alum,. 'gainst ill luck, runes--]

for earth absorbs thehumours all.

the moon against hate... intreguing, captian. *does spock eyebrow thing*
acorns against straining... my translation says oak against costiveness. do they mean constipation?
in any case, i wouldn't recommend that...

[mothwench]

Originally Posted by banondraig

66 sounds a lot like my life lately.

yeah, mine too!

[Mjollnir]

Just gimme some time mothy, I just got into work a lil' bit ago and left the Poetic Edda home. I may have to call home and have the wife walk me through any Notes on the Stanza's you mentioned, lmao.

[Mjollnir]

Originally Posted by mothwench

this, of course, is quite interesting and i just wanted to comment:




the moon against hate... intreguing, captian. *does spock eyebrow thing*
acorns against straining... my translation says oak against costiveness. do they mean constipation?
in any case, i wouldn't recommend that...

I may be mistaken but that may be one of the rune charms.

[Mjollnir]

Originally Posted by mothwench

one seems to say "don't count your chickens before they've hatched" and the other just seems to say don't take such-and-such for granted.
which do you think is the correct interpretation?

I would say neither, I think it more along the lines of being thankful. Think about it, you survived another day, the torch stayed lit when you needed it to stay lit, a wife when bedded...the love of your woman...your weapon proved true and didnt shatter, you didnt fall in the lake,river,stream etc. when you crossed it, and you come home and kick back and enjoy a cold one. I want you to remember though, this is only my opinion as to how I am reading it, in time after reading it again and again it may have a clearer or different meaning to me.

Originally Posted by mothwench

on to stanzas 84 and 91:

Originally Posted by mothwench

okay, first of all... was it uncommon or unheard of that women should converse with men, or become friends?
because from what i believe, by looking at the cultures today and how they interact, that this isn't typical at all. germans and scandinavians are a lot less gender specific when it comes to education, upbringing and social interaction than say, for example, american or mediterranian (i'm looking in comparison to e.g. spain) cultures.

In the Saga's there are countless examples of men and woman conversing together and being friends, the only time it was looked bad was if the man involved was not the suitor they had in mind and sometimes it worked out and sometimes it didnt. I think it was Kormak's Saga that has a good example and also I believe the Volsung Saga their is an example.

Originally Posted by mothwench

what are all the stanzas about billings daughter trying to say? that you should know your boundaries, and try and accept them? or is it just an extensive example of experience in references to the two stanzas before all that, 93 and 94, which say you shouldn't mock a man for having falling in love?

Rind was Billings daughter who bore Odin's son Vali who was born with the sole purpose of killing Hod in revenge for Baldr's death. If I remember correctly Odin had to go before her 3 different times in different guises before she finally relented.....I'm pretty sure that's how that one went. The Stanzas after that tell of how he bedded Gunnloth to get the mead that was made after the dwarves killed Kvasir, then a giant and his wife which was then taken by his brother I think giant and hidden in the side of a mountain and so on.........As far as what they are trying to say?? I think they are more telling the story as opposed to having a meaning, I could be wrong though.